Posted by seahunt on August 11, 2000 at 14:43:55:
In Reply to: Re: Yah... posted by Jim Hoffmann on August 11, 2000 at 10:03:22:
Pardon me if I sound irritable and be aware that we are in far less
disagreement than you may think, but I'll try to respond in the
spirit of your post.
I never said that you don't need OE training to pentrate the wreck.
I and others did accuse Michael of great ambiguity on that point.
From what he originally wrote, it seemed clear that he wanted to
require OE training for anyone visiting the wreck at all. He
finally claimed that he had made that clear all along, that he only
meant for penetrations. He has now, but, amoung other things, his
comment about a diver seeing a hatch, putting their head in and
dying, made me quite unsure of his original meaning.... His last
post under this thread does reclarify things though. He states that
if he were in control of the dive, no one not OE trained would go
Don't worry about me mentioning advanced certs, I tend to be so
suspicious of them, that I have none (well, NITROX). I have my
version of a log book. It's pictures that tell a story of many
years of serious diving.
More to the point, as I have said before, this is more about opinions
and personalities than anything else. I don't disagree that many
divers should be better divers before they dive this wreck or that
they should have more training. (Many should have more training before
even going in the water). What I vehemently disagree with is an
attitude I have often seen over my last 30 years of diving, of
somebody believing that they are wise enough to tell all divers how
they should do it and that other divers need to be regulated because
their training is not adaquate. What this issue really comes down to
is a personality that claims the right to control other peoples
actions. That's why people have gotten so offended.
Depth as a hazard is not an absolute thing anyway, for some
people that is deep. For some it's not. Certs are not the issue, nor
logs, nor even the tale the diver tells. If you think you are a good
enough judge to know a divers skill, more power to you. Otherwise, I
suggest that you leave it up to the individual and the cautionary
lecture that is always given on the Lois Ann and hopefully the rest
of the boats. 15 or 150 dives does not the diver make. One of the
most enthusiastic divers I have ever known was also the stupidist.
He just had to wait a while for his accident. This has come up before
in the context of solo diving. Some people just have a respect for
danger, some don't. A class is pretty irrelevant and is not going to
change the person.
Another reason that I don't think a class is mandatory for doing a
deep dive is because I'm living proof. I have gone very deep, I've
hunted under water, I've navigated, I've done photography, I've done
many radical night dives, I've dove extremely rough water, and many
other challenging conditions, mostly solo....... and I never took a
class for it.... I've only had a grand total of 26 hours of scuba
instruction. That's not my chosen way to learn. Maybe it's the
best way for some other people and I can do things that way, but I
prefer to learn my own way... I am extremely good at it.
Where's your pioneering spirit? I don't think humanity would ever
have gotten far with your spirit of exploration and adventure.
Come on. I took up diving with no SPG and a single diaphram regulator
which I taught myself to service. According to what I hear, it's a
miracle I'm not dead. But it's not. It's just the humanity of
it. It's just a way to do it. A couple of buddies go out and do
do something they haven't done before.
This is a matter of personality. I have played with Majove greens
(you don't make it to the hospital), sidewinders, white scorpions,
voltages over 350000, amperages that would launch a bus, made
explosives, jumped off cliffs and have body surfed 12 foot waves.
And that's just what I did for fun and doesn't even include the
really stupid stuff. I just never get hurt that way. My job was
just as dangerous or more so. My hobby is collecting skills. For me,
motorcycles are more dangerous, but that's just me and I know it. I
do not recommend the hobbies I have done for most people. I don't
even often mention them, because I know that for many people they
are inappropriate, but neither is it in my nature to try to forbid
some stranger from doing what they want. I may recommend caution,
but I do not feel like regulating other peoples behavior As such,
I don't like being told what I can and can't do. People have tended
to be notoriously wrong about that. According to some people, with
my certifications, I probably should not go deeper than 60 feet,
hunt lobster, night dive or even go in the water on the San Mateo
When I did electrical, I was the guy that did the dangerous, tough
jobs, because I safely could and others couldn't.
Now just to make you even happier. I have visited a number of wrecks
and had no interest in penetrating them. I did conclude that the next
time I went to the Ruby E, I was going to go into the hold if it
seemed appropriate. The Yukon was planned for people to penetrate
without OE training or a reel and I do plan to do just that.......
with no OE training. I will trust my discretion to get me out alive,
even more than my skill. I may even do it solo like most of my
previous 2500 or so dives. And while I know that you are going to
say 'that's terrible (or maybe good) and you're going to die', I
assure you, you don't know me and I doubt that you have what it takes
to judge me. I certainly have no interest in judging you.
Enjoy the diving, seahunt
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