Posted by Finfan on August 23, 2002 at 08:50:52:
In Reply to: Re: I thought the challenge to produce some empirical data posted by Brad on August 21, 2002 at 20:27:57:
So the studies and empirical data provided by the scientific community is bought and is for sale. A dime a dozen maybe, so where are yours to support your opinions? Put up or shut up already!
Now it's the commercials that have wiped out the shallow rockfish populations and at Cortez no less. I thought you said it was the recreational guys at Catalina. Who is it Brad, the commercials or the recreationals? First rule in debate - wavering in your reasoning only shows the educated person just how weak and feable minded your position is.
Also, how did we go from one edge of the SCB ecosystem to the far outside. Oh that's right we are "debating" whether or not Brad is an extremist(I'm really cautious using that term to describe anything with your banter in it). You know you really are making this easy for me.
You can't possibly be suggesting that the ecosystems found between our coast and 20 miles are the same as those found 100 miles offshore. At least you will have put an end the "extremist" question, although we might have to start debating your sanity. What a lunatic! I realize we are in a full moon period, but come on now. I get it, your just trying to jerk me around and make me think your using two distinct ecosystems 80 miles apart as support. How tricky!
So explain to me again how all of the governmental studies and university studies on the SCB ecosystem and the effects of pollution and/or tide changes are bought by the commercial interest. Better yet, your proof? Oh yeh, this conspiracy theory is just your opinion (was that "period!").
Here's a few other independent studies to support my position. I wonder how much the rec guys or commercial guys paid for these?
So let's see, where are we at -
It's the rec guys, no the commercials that have destroyed the shallow rockfisk populations. I guess it depends on where we are at (would that be fantasyland?)
Big reserves, not small ones are what works. (because Bradley says so and then their always is Cape Canaveral). Have you ever wondered if a warmwater fishery will react and migrate the same as a cold water fishery Brad? (I know, I'll try not to make you think too hard, it hurts doesn't it?) I could provide you with some studies, but then we know your position on studies.
We don't have to give a sh*t about the pelegics only the resident fishery. Especially since Brad stopped eating shrimp 20 years ago (speaking of shrimp, let's not go there). The real beauty of any ecosystem Brad is it's integration between other ecosystems. They are in every case dependent upon each other. It's that circle of life thing and food chain issue. But again that's just published scientific opinions, not the same caliber as Brad's opinions. Ever stop and think about the baitfish populations, their deminishing pools and your rockfish theories (sorry, it's that thinking thing again). Of course pollution had no effect on the anchovie or sardine populations did they Brad?
It's not pollution or weather changes that have wiped out hundreds of thousands of acreas of kelp forest - it's the lobster industry and sport or commercial boating. (you know, you really had the folks in my office rolling over that one and most of them don't even dive, just a dumb group of paid off scientists) I'm really starting to think we have a capacity to learn thing here and I just don't have the time to give you a marine biology lesson. Maybe Brad it's another hugh conspiracy by those sushi eating manics. Gotta wrap that rockfish and rice in something.
The single worse thing for fish populations is man killing them - "period!!". Wrong again! The single worse thing for fish populations is the lack of suitable breeding habitat. Again, brad it's about habitat, not no take. If the water or surrounding sand/rocks are so polluted that fish can't cultivate their eggs and reproduce you can shut off the West Coast and good luck seeing any rockfish rejuvination in your lifetime.
You know, there are some folks out there that actually have developed some valid theories behind reserves. Do them a favor and don't try and help them. They still have some credibility.
You see Brad you have two major problems here -
First - just because you put a tank on your back and take pictures it don't make you an expert. You see I'm not just someone who " loves the oceans" I've spent a lifetime studying them, specifically the SCB ecosystem. We have never been debating this topic at the same level (but I think only one of us realized that, maybe even now)
Secondly, only an extremist would try and convince anyone that a single source could destroyed an entire population of anything. The intellectual community, while it may have several folks who are passionate about their opinions realize the limits that come with dramatic solutions.
Got to go - having leftover sushi for lunch and I need some kelp to wrap around it. Thanks for the title of my next paper "Why Catalina and Cortez are the exact same"
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