Posted by seahunt on February 20, 2001 at 17:06:38:
In Reply to: NDL calculations without a computer posted by MHK on February 20, 2001 at 09:34:03:
Hey Moroon (aka. Michael Kane),
At the risk of repeating myself, you're just a BS artist.
You said that you would tell us how to do your magic manual deco calcs and
said that you were asked by Dale Sheckler to write it up for CDN. I and
others asked you over and over to show us this impossible feat. Not only
are the calculations unlikely and distracting, the accurate data sampling
would be impossible. After I and others insisted that you describe your
method, you tried to weasel out of it by claiming (a complete lie, see
below) that I had challenged you to show me on a dive how it was done. As
I have explained and many times since, that would prove nothing. Any
experienced diver can dive NDL by guestimation and then at the end, I would
still ask you how it was done. Heck, just dive with me and you won't get
into deco. I use a computer.
As I stated. I used to do math for fun when I was a kid, but now I have
responsibilities to be correct, so I depend on a computer. I just give
it a (validated) method and the data and voila, I get a correct
You have been told many reasons why it can't be accurately done. You have
been told many reasons why no one would want to do it if it could. You have
been told it is a dangerous practice to promote. You have never told us why
anyone in their right mind would want to do it.
Your method of arguement is dishonesty, attack and defamation of the people
who question you.
I put up $50 to just get you to shut up. I'll double that right now.
You call me Cyberdiver to insult me and say that if I don't dive with you
it proves your point. It doesn't. My family obligations have restricted my
diving lately, but I have still been diving longer and more than you have
and from what you say, much of it has been under far more challenging
conditions. I will be diving for a long time to come.
Now Moroon Kane, you say that if I don't come to your DIR demo for an
explanation, it proves you right. It still doesn't.
Hey out there. Has anyone of the many of you that have gone to a DIR demo
before, had this mystical method explained to you?
You keep telling me to show up or shut up and that proves you are
right. It's not that easy.
We all keep telling you to just tell us how to do what you keep claiming
you can do while diving. It has to be easier on the surface. It has to
be explainable or it's just arm waving. You won't even give a hint how
to do either the sampling or the calculations. You have as much as
admitted you couldn't do it on an erratic profile.
I was the first to say put up or shut up. You just keep trying to weasel
out of your claim that you could. You have made extravegant claims
and they require a good proof. My diving or not diving, my appearance or
non-appearance at your demo, don't effect whether you can do these manual
deco calculations. It is about a 170 mile trip for me to get to your DIR
demo and presents great difficulty for me to get there, but I might try.
Whether I can or not proves nothing. Only you describing your method can
do that. With all the heat you've taken so far, I really expect that you
would have tried by now. That it can't be done over the internet is BS. If
it's too difficult to be explained readily it is way to difficult to use
in the water. Other deco methods are all described in writing. Heck, just
tell us your sampling method. And please don't give us BS about calculating
before the dive and following the profile.
I'd still just as soon you tell me how to calculate the profile that I
posted for you in the original cosmology posts. It is fairly typical and
is almost certainly places you have been diving before, Eagles Reef and
Isthmus High Spot.
In short Moroon, you've talked big, so please quit distraction us with BS
challenges to me and attacks on everyone and just tell us your method.
Put up or shut up.
And just in case you've forgotten your BS, I'll repost to remind you.
Posted by MHK on February 02, 2001 at 15:24:56:
I will pay for you and I to go on ANY trip on ANY boat of your choosing..
No limitations whatsoever, you chose the dive sites, you choose the profiles,
you can bounce up and down and do whatever the hell you want during any number
of dives.. I'll even make it a 2 day trip and we can dive from 6:00 am day one
through the night and into the next day and get as many as 15
dives in in two days.. You use a computer and I won't and I GAURANTEE 100%
that will come within NDL limits EVERY dive..
Posted by MHK on February 05, 2001 at 12:19:01:
So rather than engage in mere speculation I thought I'd be practical about it
and show it in real life as opposed to cyber diving...
ANY DIVE, ANY BOAT, ANY PROFILE......
Posted by MHK on February 05, 2001 at 09:40:24:
Seahunt posed a challenge to me and I've accepted in that I will do ANY
dive.. But in reality, as I've stated many times, we try to solve problems
before they occur.. What I mean by that is that I don't regularly engage
in diving sawtooth profiles.. I try to do the deepest part of my dive first
and then slowly work my way up, but simply to put the matter to rest I
wanted to make the point to Seahunt that no matter what kind of profile he
could come up with I would match the NDL's to his computer.. But in my view
that type of practice isn't something I would do and should be discouraged..
It's called thinking the problem through and solving as much of it as you
can before you get in the water..
No MHK, it was you that offered that challenge. That was just dishonest.
I'll take this final mis-representation to mean that you want to weasel out
of telling us your magical deco calculation method. You can't calculate a
sawtooth profile accurately and you as much as admit it, so you did this
little bit of verbal magic and say I challenged you and so let you off the
hook for a description of your method. Well, I'm annoyed at you for twisting
around what I said and it sure didn't fool me. As I said, diving within NDL
isn't hard. It would prove nothing. I'm still waiting for your method and
until we know it and know how to use it, I will continue to say that you
are promoting unsafe practices when telling sport divers not to use a
computer... and that's not the only bull that DIR proponents have tried to
foist off on us. You will have to let me slide if I don't take you too
seriously from now on.
Notice that I am careful to distinguish between DIR and DIR proponents. DIR
is a system with a good concept. The DIR proponents are just people and they
come across really weird, aggressive and fairly deceptive. Due to the
dishonesty of the last discussion I would just as soon ignore all posts by
certain DIR proponents, but I think it better that I try to post occasionaly
to help you clarify when you can't get your facts straight like this one.
You guys use really weird tactics to promote your vision of diving.
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